Advice about advice!

[Loulabelle]

OK, so as someone who often finds herself being asked for advice, I'm quite familiar with people asking for it, then ignoring it, then getting upset when the shit hits the fan.

At that point, I usually just walk away and say, 'well I warned you not to come crying to me....'. Normally people's pride and better judgement usually means that they go cry on someone else's shoulder, which is fine by me, and understandable, as no-one likes to hear 'I told you so'.

However....what if that someone is someone who's very close to you? So close, that in fact, you know that if they don't follow your advice, their problem will soon become your problem?

I'm currently in this position with a family member.....as much as I've tried to explain to her the dangers of her actions, she continues down the same path of destruction, and I am the one who has to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong, which it inevitably does. Since she is a family member, her pain is my pain and though I try to remain emotionally detached there are times when her problems encroach and affect my life. (The last time this happened, for example, was the day before FussyPucker's 30th Birthday, when, amongst other things I was supposed to be making him a cake. He did get his cake, in the end, as I stayed up late and rose at dawn to finish it, determined not to let him down as it was important to me that he knew he was not playing second fiddle to my family member's self inflicted problems.)

So I give her sound advice (I know it's sound, because it's exactly the advice she'd give me, if roles were reversed) in the hopes that she'll take it, so that I don't have to be on 'suicide watch' when it all goes to shit. I've even tried telling her, "Well this is my advice, if you don't take it, then I'm not going to help you when it all comes crashing down about your ears" but she doesn't take the advice and she still comes to me with her problems, or someone else will ring me up with the 'I thought you ought to know....' speech and it lands itself right back on my doorstep.

I can't see an end to this as it is a cycle that has perpetuated for many years already. I have a responsibility to Fussy and to my future children to make sure that her issues do not overshadow their needs, as she seems to have no concept of how the way she behaves in the family impacts on others in it. The only thing I can think to do, is to stop wasting my energy on the advice and be supportive and encouraging whatever she says she's going to do (it creates arguments and tension when I try to warn her off certain paths of action 'for her own good') and then be sympathetic when it goes wrong. This goes against my conscience, but since my advice is never heeded, perhaps I'd gain some relief from no longer trying. Whatever action I take, it won't stop her from calling me in floods of tears telling me she's suicidal, something which I've accepted as part of who she is.

So what would you do? Give up trying to be helpful, in the comfort that the less energy you expend on her, the less frustrated you'll be, or continue to try to 'do the right thing' by her knowing that when she ignores the advice at least you know you tried and that your conscience is clear?

[wyndhy]

i'd still give the advice. not so much for a clear conscience but 'cause i have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. (i have a sister much like your family member). i never say i told you so and i don't put conditions on my advice but i do find myself saying 'this is your bed...you made it. now, you can sleep in it'. i have no problem being unsympathetic when sympathy is not deserved. i also tend to not let her shit bring me down or suck me in. it frustrates her for sure because she believes the world...and i, for that matter, revolve around her. she's done quite a bit of sticking her nose in my business and has even gone so far as to insinuate...ah hell, who am i kidding? she didn't insinuate anything....she came right out and said it...said things that are untrue and hurtful and even hateful to my husband, trying to drive a wedge between us. it won't ever work but she doesn't get...selfish people never do. quintessential sister move here--when she once told me...in a slurred and snotty voice... that she loved my kids more than she loved me and i replied that i definitely loved my kids more than i loved her she was shocked and actually hurt...didn't speak to me for the rest of the night. i love her, she is my baby sister, but sometimes i don't like her very much. i don't like to see her hurt so i try to help when i can but i can't let her stubbornness, stupidity and selfishness ruin my life.

how the hell did i turn that around to be about me? i'm so sorry, lou.

you need to decide how far you'd go to help, and how much you're willing to give up and sacrifice to help. personally....i draw the line at sacrificing my marriage or my family. sometimes, the hardest thing to is to walk away, especially when you feel the strong ties of blood and responsibility. but it's also true that, in the end, she is responsible for herself and must learn to navigate life on her own just as you are and do.

family has it’s own set of twisted problems made just that much more complicated by love and blood but it doesn’t make you a bad person just because you are tired of getting dragged down and sucked in.

i was absolutely no help(((((hugs))))

[BigBear57]

The only advice I can offer is tough love. It's said you have to be cruel to be kind and some people will use you up without stopping to even consider the emotional drain they're causing. I know it's not easy to just say "I'm not helping anymore." but sometimes it's the only thing that will make them take a good long look at their actions... unfortunately for some even that won't do it. Wish I could offer some magical charm for the problem but I've definitely been there (((((((Lou))))) I wish you the best.

[Lilith]

It's easy to be an enabler when you are emotionally involved. When you say don't cry to me then you let them, it's enabling. It's also called loving someone. The lines get so blurry and the cycle never ends. I think the thing to remember is that some people thrive on being the star of drama. They are most in their glory when their applecart is upset and they are scurrying after the apples. "I told you so" is helpful to no one and some may see it as self-righteous, so I avoid any of that sort of thing.

I still give the advice, I don't get wrapped up in the drama and then I help them pick up a few apples and tell them I love them still but they need to clean up the mess.

[Nazgul1954]

I also have a family member with some personal problems that have caused more than their fair share of ripples in the family. I've seen the toll it's taken on my parents and grandmother. I've tried to help him, as a good big brother should, only to have it come crashing back on me.

Sometimes, despite our best hopes and intentions, family member's problems are beyond our ability to do more than listen and continue to give advice. There are days I feel like a Pez dispenser of advice... but I digress! With his problems, alcohol related, he needs better help than I am able to give. While I can point him in the direction of those who can help, it requires some admission of a problem on his part (and those who are enabling him) for him to tak that next step. Perhaps, in a similar sense, your sister would benefit from some more professional help?

I wish you luck with your sister and hope that some of this may be of use to you.

[lonelyarmywife]

Ok i haven't read the above posts ( too long) so if this is a repeat, spank me and ignore it.

I have a problem with not giving advice, as some of you may or may not have noticed. I just pretty much think I know everything about everything and want to impart my wisdom on other people.

that being said.

You are very right to put your husband and children over your other family members. That's the way it's meant to be. My advice is tough love. Give the advice to her, then when she doesn't take it, make HER clean up her own mess. her problems are NOT your problems.

let me say that one again -
HER PROBLEMS ARE NOT YOUR PROBLEMS.

anything that she is woman enough to get her ass into she can get her ass out of.

[Loulabelle]

Tanks for the advice everyone.....I agree, it's important not to take responsibility for her problems, and I don't think I do...I never interfere and try to solve the problems for her, but she herself, becomes my problem, if that makes sense. Also, I've finally got through to her that she needs counselling and she's started seeing one...the first bit of my advice she's ever taken!

To return to the example of the day I should have been making Fussy's Birthday cake....that day I get a phonecall from her next door neighbour, saying she'd been in contact with her ex (a man who is no good for her whatsoever) and he'd let her down again....she rarely drinks, but had decided to drown her sorrows with a few glasses of brandy, first thing in the morning and she ended up in bed, throwing up and losing control of her bladder a little each time she puked. Her neighbour thought it wouldn't be a good idea to leave her on her own, but she was about to go away for the weekend.

In this situation, how, realistically, could I have said to the neighbour, 'I told her not to make contact with him, it's her bed she'll have to lie in it'? Her physical being was in danger, as I saw it, as I didn't know how much she had drunk and what state she was in until I got there. When I arrived she told me she'd not taken any pills because she didn't think she'd got enough left to finish herself off.....I stayed a few hours, but once I'd seen that she'd had a bath and got out of bed, I told her I had to go. We'd reached the point of arguing because I wasn't letting her wallow in self pity.

Oh and Nazgul1954, just for the record, I never said it was my sister....I imagine it would be easier to deal with if it were....it's a little bit different when the person is your Mother though....

[Steph]

Lou, I feel your pain.

I had an ex-boyfriend who only cared about himself yet I helped him out time and time again. I realized I was being an enabler and stopped dealing with him. I missed him/felt terrible but it was truly better that I did it that way.

[Steph]

Lou, I feel your pain.

I had an ex-boyfriend who only cared about himself yet I helped him out time and time again. I realized I was being an enabler and stopped dealing with him. I missed him/felt terrible but it was truly better that I did it that way.

My mom? Jesus . . . I just can't talk to her much. It's too much trouble. She's an adult . . . I just can't give up my life for her "issues". I might be selfish but I like living my own life and making my own mistakes.

[Nazgul1954]

Oh and Nazgul1954, just for the record, I never said it was my sister....I imagine it would be easier to deal with if it were....it's a little bit different when the person is your Mother though....

My apologies, Ms. Loulabelle... I guess I didn't scroll down far enough and misread part Wyndhy's post as your own. :o

I'm glad things are working out for your mom and you are right - it would be tougher to deal with a parent than a sibling.

[maddy]

Gosh Lou, I don't have much useful advice other than to say I was in a situation with both my parents (they are still married) ... they went through an abusive stint where my father was the face of terror. While I knew what he was doing to my Mom was wrong, I couldn't stop loving him or give the appearance of choosing my Mom over my Dad. I removed myself the best I could - let them both know that it was their problem and I refused to be a part of it. My Mom finally sought help from a counselor and support groups - eventually my Dad joined her in the quest to make their marriage and themselves better, it helped them - but even through that, when my Mom needed a ride (she doesn't drive) I wouldn't take her - told her that she needed to learn independence from her family - to have the ability to take care of herself, rather than lean on us for everything. I often felt cold and heartless - but I really think it was better for my emotional sanity to hold tough and walk away during that time in their life. I guess in a nutshell, it's the tough love others have mentioned...

(((Lou))) I hope you find peace with your situation.

[Mark Vieth]

Well what to say here. Well my older sister has always been jealous of me and acted out towards my parents by stealing money from them. The money was spare change that was for the newspaper milk etc. This was when she was only 12 and I was 8.

She ended up moving out coz she didn't like the way my parents told her that stealing was wrong. They didn't hit her or anything, they did what every parent does. They tried to work it out. I knew that she was stealing and she told me not to tell them. Now of course when there is only 2 kids in the house and they ask me if I was stealing the money and I say no, then it just a simple process of elimination. So they went after her and asked her again, which she of course lied about saying stuff like "it's not my fault you left the money out and can't remember where you left it." Also "well what do you expect to happen if you leave money just lying around?"

My parents tried to explain to her that stealing and lying are not good traits to have. My sister took it all the wrong way and moved out.

My parents are also the tough love type, which is a good thing, coz it shows the person that every action has an opposite and equal reaction. If you do something good or bad then there is always an outcome. Whether you like it or not.

Now my sister at the age of 32 still thinks that I am the favourite out of me and her. She only thinks that coz when I ask my parents for help or something they try and help me. Now they do the same for her but when she mistreats the help and they tell her off and she thinks that they are telling her off for the wrong reasons. Like what happened recently, she was living in Queensland near my parents house and my parents had bought a house for my sister, her husband and 6 kids. She couldn't keep the place clean and when my parents had enough of her and she moved out, they had to have the carpets replaced, the walls repainted and the landscaping done.

Then they had to put the house on the market to get there money back from fixing it up. Now my parents have washed their hands with her, and won't ever help her like that again. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Oh sorry lou I got a bit off track here. I think we all have a problem family member, the only advice I can give is what has already been given. But perhaps your mother should be seeing a counsellor or a shrink to help her through this. There is only so much you can do. The rest is up to her and if she really wants to make herself better then she will go see a shrink.

[Loulabelle]

She had one session with a life coach (who happens to be a friend of mine) which she said helped her a lot, but she's met this man whom she believes she's in love with (despite having known him only a very short time) and she hasn't seen the counsellor since.

This is the defining problem my mother has....she doesn't think she exists unless there is a man in her life, and she rather be with anyone than no-one.

In the meantime, my sister and I get treated like crap while it's all going well with the man, and then expected to 'be there for her' when it all goes wrong.

Her behaviour is losing her friends at the moment, and I don't blame them for not wanting anything to do with her......I wouldn't want anything to do with her if she weren't my mother, since she's so incredibly self obsessed.

[Mark Vieth]

This sounds alot like my girlfriends mother. She isn't in your mums situation, but she does treat my girlfriend like crap when she is not around her boyfriend.

M=Mum, D=Daughter

Here's the funny thing, when M is over seeing D and M has her b/f there as well, she puts on an act and treats D nice. But when M is there on her own seeing D she treats her like crap, and tries to rule her life.

I of course tell my g/f just to ignore her mum when she get's like this and not add fuel to the fire. Coz then her mum tells her to move out. Even though her mum is living with her b/f, my g/f is living at her mums place so at least she has somewhere to live.

Her mum is also a control freak. For example her mum has got the home phone on selective dialing. So my g/f can only ring certain number's. Then her mum tells her to find work. Now question, how is she suppose to find work when she can't ring up jobs that are advertised in the paper?

Yeah I know what you are thinking.....WTF?

[Cassiopeia]

Lou, that is quite a difficult situation and I sympathize. My best friend in high school was bulimic and so the advice dynamic was very similar. I know that it must be frustrating to constantly repeat the advice, but I feel that it's just something that as a sister and a friend, you just have to keep doing. You said it yourself that it was the same advice she would give you. Perhaps deep down or subconsciously she knows that it is right, but might not be in strong point in her life to admit it to herself much less out loud to you. If your sister is anything like mine, if she really didn't believe in the advice and didn't want to hear it, she wouldn't keep coming back to you and setting herself up to hear your advice again and again. I wish you the best difficult situation and hope that your sister will one day see the light so to speak. I hope this was helpful.

[Loulabelle]

As I said before, it's not my sister who's the 'problem family member', in fact, she keeps me sane, it's my Mother who is the problem, and that makes the dynamic slightly more complex.

Giving advice to someone 30 years your senior, which they then ignore makes you feel as though you're wasting your time.....

[Mark Vieth]

Lou, that is quite a difficult situation and I sympathize. My best friend in high school was bulimic and so the advice dynamic was very similar. I know that it must be frustrating to constantly repeat the advice, but I feel that it's just something that as a sister and a friend, you just have to keep doing. You said it yourself that it was the same advice she would give you. Perhaps deep down or subconsciously she knows that it is right, but might not be in strong point in her life to admit it to herself much less out loud to you. If your sister is anything like mine, if she really didn't believe in the advice and didn't want to hear it, she wouldn't keep coming back to you and setting herself up to hear your advice again and again. I wish you the best difficult situation and hope that your sister will one day see the light so to speak. I hope this was helpful.

Lou is talking about her mother in this thread.

[Cassiopeia]

oh I'm sorry Lou. But mother, daughter, sister, whatever, I think that the same advice should apply. With family, I think you have to do what you feel is the right thing to do regardless if there is an age difference.

[Loulabelle]

That's just the problem though Cass...what IS the right thing to do?

I feel that by supporting her even after she's ignored my advice, I'm somehow engaging some kind of positive reinforcement of her bad choices. Would I be more effective in her learning from her mistakes if I didn't try to advise her.

Plus there's the issue of doing the right thing by everyone else in my life, and, I believe that my future husband should be my number one priority (her man is her number one priority - always has been since we were tiny children) and that her disasters are going to have to be dealt with on her own from now on.

I just can't get away from feeling like I should keep trying to help, even though it can be a destructive thing for my own happiness and well being.

[maddy]

Lou, you sure are in a tough position. The only thing I can suggest is maybe choosing battles from time to time. You mention how you are torn between the compelling urge to keep helping and your own happiness. Perhaps you can find a small battle of hers that you walk away from and see what reaction is produced. Baby steps, start small and gain confidence that what you are doing is okay for her and for you.

(((Lou)))

[Steph]

I just reread some of your posts, Lou . . . I don't mean to sound harsh but it seems you went to check on your mum when a neighbour called & it may have been for appearance's sake yet you were worried.

Could you call a family meeting & have other family members back you up? Try telling her that it's upsetting to the family to see her self-destruct. You've done what you can for her & now she's going to have to deal on her own.

Yeah, I'm a cold bitch sometimes but it ends up being about your own self-preservation after a while. She sounds pretty selfish (again, apologies if I'm off the mark or sound harsh) & may not even care that she's causing you stress.

When my mother gets dramatic, I lose respect for her & pull back (especially when her problems are self-inflicted & could easily be resolved).

You can lead a horse to water . . .

[Loulabelle]

Steph, that's pretty much the mind set I'm in at the moment...what you're saying does not sound harsh at all.

She's going through a manically happy stage at the moment, because of the new man in her life, and the rest of us are getting treated really badly because of it, which makes me feel more and more that I'm doing the right thing by backing off and not getting drawn into interfering with her life. After all, there's no point investing too much in someone who treats you badly when she's happy, and rides rough shod over your needs/responsibilities/wants when she's in need.

I think you said it all Steph, with your last sentence....it's a tack I'm trying to take, but it's not that easy when it's someone you love.

[Steph]

((((((Lou))))))

My mother was concerned only about herself and what people thought of her. For me, the turning point was when she freaked out at me for no reason when I flew down for a vacation in 2002. She seeks attention at any cost and it's really draining.

I think perhaps why people seek your counsel is the same reason they seek mine.

We've seen our mothers act like giggly school girls when things are going well for them but they're like Joan Crawford in "Mommy Dearest" otherwise.

Therapy helped me just cut her off. Well, I'll still talk to her but I've let her know I can't listen to her hypochondriac ramblings nor her summaries of what she saw on CNN that day.

I really don't feel guilty. I refuse to baby her especially since she was mostly cold towards me.

I've dealt with similar personality types in life. They go away when they realize you won't hold their hand and nod emphatically as they ramble about Drama 6778305. Improve your life don't ramble about how fucked it is.

Another overshare brought to you by the number 666 and the letter X.

[Loulabelle]

(((((Steph)))))

I think we definitely share some common ground here.....a lot of what you just said is stuff I can relate to.

Glad to know I'm not alone in this respect.

[Steph]

I'm glad you can comprehend the fun I had, too. :D

I took the cold road, though. I just couldn't deal with it anymore. There were some crazy stuff in the family that made me realize she was truly selfish.

Concentrate on your fun life. She'll leave you alone when she realizes you're not going to listen to her soap opera digests. I swear!

[GingerV]

Lou, we have to make a pact never to let your Mom meet my Dad.

In your original post, you asked about giving advice to someone who wasn't going to take it....and whether you should bother. Personally, I don't think it matters so long as you know you're shouting down a well. But I also get the impression that whether you give the advice at the beginning of the drama or not isn't really the problem. I may be projecting myself a little too much here...so go ahead and tell me I've got it wrong...but even if I didn't advise the person who's created their own crisis...I'd STILL be stuck trying to clean it up.

[I tried to figure out how to write the next part without just talking about myself....but I'm failing. Sorry if this all sounds a bit too "me me me"ish.] I know that Jeckle and Hyde routine. The woman in his life is the center of the universe, whether she's worthy of it or not. And because he isn't terribly picky, she's usually more "not." But the problems in his world can't possibly be caused by this goddess of all things good, so it must be the job...the neighbors...fate...or most often it was blamed on the kids. We have collectively been blamed, berated, emotionally neglected and/or abused, sent to counseling, prevented from going to counseling that was working, yelled at, ignored, and kicked out before graduating high school (each of us got some of those treats, not all)....all to maintain the myth that The Relationship is good and should be preserved. And those were the good days. The bad days were when the woman of the moment finally left and he lost interest in life. Now we're largely grown up and out of it...and the rules have changed a bit. He doesn't have as big an impact on our day to day lives...but man can he lay down a long distance guilt trip. He doesn't demand we come clean up his mess...he demands that we hear his semi-suicidal musings and NOT take action, otherwise we couldn't feel sufficiently powerless I guess.

Learning how to deal with all this, I once had a therapist tell me, "they wouldn't call it tough love if it were easy." It hurts like hell. It wouldn't be worth it if the other option wasn't basically a slow ego death. A friend described him as one of those people who refuse to help themselves, but want company as they circle the drain, and can't love you enough to want to spare you the experience. I do as much as I can, but I don't do anything more than that. It took YEARS to learn to shed the resulting guilt. He raised me, training me every day to be his little helper monkey...takes a long time to shed those instincts and realize that even your parents don't have that kind of call on your loyalties. Becacuse there are no limits, he's never getting better, and he won't even realize he's killing me. And if I let him destroy me, I'll never be there to help anyone else.

Which is all vague and probably unhelpful, so I'm going to try some specifics. Places where I draw the line, although you have to draw it where it's best for you. I've come to learn that's different for everyone. I've walked away from my Dad for years at a time because I couldn't let his psychosis run my life. But I'm just not strong enough to do it forever. To be who I am, I had to find a compromise. I drew my personal line at my professional life and my relationship with my fiance or other family members. An example...oh, despite his well practiced guilt trips, I won't stretch vacations where I see him at the expense of seeing my mom or spending "us alone" time with my fiance. I won't interupt my professional life to come deal with his crisis. I will (and did) wire money to cover his phone bill (much more important that his paycheck went to pay his and current wife's bar tab)...but only if it's not money I was planning an immediate use for. And I WILL call it a loan, even though I don't kid myself I'll ever see it again. I will talk on the phone with him now, until I start stressing so much I have trouble sleeping. Then I cut him off until the next time I feel strong enough. But it's my choice, not his. And if all hell breaks loose while I'm on a phone-vacation....it's on his head. I left because I had to, he created both the situation that drove me away and the situation that's hurting him while I'm gone. I'm not responsible for either one.

As far as your example...if I'm honest, I'd have done pretty much exactly what you did. Given extra from my own store of energy in order to give my beloved what he deserved while still doing the minimum I could for my parent and still look at myself in the mirror. I'd have gone, cleaned him up, emptied the house of dangerous swallowables and left him to sober up on his own....then made the world spin backwards to finish the cake. But while I fully admit, I'd have done what you did....I try to minimize the number of times I try to make up the difference between what I want to give to my father and what the rest of my life deserves from my own stock of energy. Self sacrifice comes too naturally to me; and if, as I've always suspected, that tendency to nail myself to a cross for other people's convenience comes from life with Dad...you may have it too. I have to be very wary of my instinct to just peddle faster to make it up to everyone. My fiance understands that sometimes I just have to deal with my crazy family, he lets me know when I'm doing too much of it and forgives me either way. He'd have loved the cake, told me how much it meant to him, and to not be such a damned fool next time...he can have cake a day or two late. I give it even oddds whether I'd have listened to that last part.

But more than any of the above, I'm just so sorry you had to deal with that...they're supposed to be taking care of US damnit. And I'm sorry there's never going to be an easy answer. (((Lou))), may you have a long break between storms.

G