The highest form of treason

[jennaflower]

On Saturday the world was witness to (whether first hand or via news reprots) the highest form of treason that this country has experienced in sometime... the act? An African American Muslim pulling out the wire of TWO grenades and sending them into tents to kill fellow soldiers.... I don't know about any of you, but I believe that this should be a wake up call for many in the U.S.

This reckless, heartless, cruel action has now resulted in a second death. There are countless others that were injured (some losing limbs) in this attack. As a veteran of the military and as a politically patriotic american this particular action sickens me.

There are several different reports.. some tie his actions to his muslim faith that he only recently converted to... others tie his actions to a vendeta because he was not allowed to go to the front lines due to recent disciplinary actions taken against him because of his attitude. Others yet site the fact that he is a suppressed african american who has been wrongly disciplined in the military. In my opinion, the reason is irrelivant. I don't care what his pea brain was contemplating when he chose to pull the pins from the grenade... I only care that he did so.. and YES.. it was a CHOICE.

IF he had done so during almost any other war in history, he would have been shot and killed immediately. It is my opinion that this should have been the case here as well... but alas.. it isn't. Instead, he has been shipped to a highly secured military brig to wait until the investigation is over and he is tried for the crime. Unfortunately, over the last 30 years, the US has gotten soft on punishment (could that be do to the bleeding heart liberals out there?) and because of this, the fate of the soldier (Damn I hate referring to this sad excuse for a human as a soldier) is still up in the air. There is talk that he may be found guilty and serve the rest of his life in a brig... I say.. that is far more than he deserves. This man should be executed.. NOW.. not in a year... but now... he does not deserve to step foot on this soil, the soil that he chose NOT to protect... he doesn't deserve any of the freedoms that this country stands for.

Okay.... my rant is over... but I am certain that many here are up for sharing your opinion on this matter... similar or different than my own... I urge you to share... I would really like to know :)

HUGS

[skipthisone]

I saw his mom on CNN adn she seemed to think it wasnt his fault, that all the other soldiers in the military were just meanies...

Oh wait it was CNN, never mind.

[jennaflower]

ROFL.. which is why I only watch FOXNEWS...

Sorry.. but if you can't play with the big dogs stay on the porch. The military is not based on the draft.. everyone in todays military (atleast on the part of the US) are volunteers... and I know for a fact that once someone is in.. and realizes that it isn't for them.. there is more than one way to get out.

No matter the reason, there is no excuse for what he did.... tho I am certain that there will be more than just his poor mama who will claim that there is. There will be plenty of people who will happily jump on his bandwagon and play the trumpet as loud as they can to try to gain pity on him.... they won't be able to sway me... I own earplugs :)

Sadly, his actions are only going to cause more problems here within our country. Sadly, those who are muslims and residing in this country will no doubt be scrutinized even closer now than they would have been otherwise. Yes, there are many people in this country that need to be scrutinized, but I don't for one minute believe that ALL muslims condone the actions of those that would submit the world to terrorism.

Maybe, his actions will result in some good... maybe just maybe (a snow balls chance in hell really) our government will begin to look a little closer at our imigration process....

[Tess]

The gist of his mother's argument was that he was passed over for promotion because he was a Muslim. Ohhhhhhh... that make's a big difference. I'm sure that the military tribunal will dismiss all murder and assault charges when they here this sad tale of woe. NOT!

I am sick and tired of this type of mentality! It makes me livid when I here the promotion of the idea that almost any act is forgiveable if they have a politically correct excuse, or they apologize profusely.

Hmmmm... I think I have finally figured out the legacy of the Clinton presidency.

[Vigil]

Just don't make a martyr of this young man.

[Steph]

We don't know the whole story - he could be mentally ill . . .

[horseman12]

Well it had to happen, I almost got started on this last night but tried to stay away and calm down.

First off let me just say as a former miltary person myself "IF" he has a mental problem our military has some of the best psychiatrist in the world and they will eveluate this worm to the letter, but i gotta sayi really can't believe this after he committed this act of cowardness, he went and hid, which tells me he knew what he did was wrong!

I have never been a fan of capital punishment when there were still questions unanswered, but if a person is blatant about what they have done and the punishment fits the crime, then yes a life for a life, my only wish is that When he is found guilty is that while he is awaiting his sentence, the families of all those hurt and killed and have the chance to scream thier disgust for this man, let him know their feelings, no holds barred.

and just like the men who went on the shooting spree here a couple of months back also professed the muslim faith, I wonder maybe they have mental problems also? oh well fry'em anyway!!
They like this man knew right from wrong, and i really can't see this eighties fad of pleading insanity coming back when it is proven that a person understands right from wrong. I see no defense for this thing, what if we all decided to kill because we felt like we were being trated unfairly, shit the streets would be constantly flowing with blood. I realize there will be sympathisizers with this thing, and there will probably be peaceful/violent protest, but stop and think about it the thing had a choice, it had options other than killing, he made his decision now he has to pay for that choice, like we all do!

[Oldfart]

Any soldier who can't or won't do the utmost to support

and defend his mates regardless of how he feels shouldn't

be a soldier in a theatre of conflict.

[don73153]

Jennaflower, you rock. I agree with you. The piece of shit should be flushed!!!!

[jennaflower]

Vigil... I don't think there is much of a chance of making him a martyr. No matter his reason, he committed treason which during a time of war is punishable by death.

H@rd Rock.... I believeyou are correct... personal non-accountability is definetly the remnent of the Clinton presidency.

Horseman.... soooo glad I could help stir you up first thing in the morning :)

don.... thank you :)

Personally... I do believe that this man must be mentally ill... afterall no one in their right mind would do what he has done. HOWEVER, I do not believe for a moment that whatever mental illness will be stamped across his forehead excuses what he did. He knew what he was doing was wrong, and he made the choice to do it. In my opinion, that is one of the problems in this world.. "mental illness' = ones inability to take the credit/blame for their actions.

[skipthisone]

Well said Jenna. I am in complete agreement. We as a society are full of excuses anymore as to why someone did something. I already heard a reporter today asking the question "Does he feel sorry for what he did?"...they asked this question like it everything would be just fine as long as he was remorseful for what he did....The inside of a brig should be the only thing this guy ever sees again.

[PantyFanatic]

Yes you surprised me girl.:eek: But you seem to be spot on with this.

This thread started out very blunt and very barbaric. The, reluctantly accepted but, UNDENIABLE FACT is that OUR barbaric species is involved with a barbaric endeavor because of another barbarian. (redundancy called for:rolleyes: )

Your demand is not a “knee-jerk” reaction, even though the conclusion was at the front. All the reasoning we are capable of has been brought forward by the other responses. Our existence is governed by the properties of our genetics and environment. This individuals act is part of that and there are no options to the ending.

Yes Steph, he is mentally ill in a manner like the 19 who hijacked the planes on 9/11 and like a rattlesnake is poisonous. When it’s in your babies room, … you have to deal with it.

[celticangel]

theres people who are mentally unstable, some who are easily led and others who are just plain evil------God bless us all and keep our sisters and brothers safe----reguardless of what creed/colour etc they are.

[ryker]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs.

BUT...they should not try to force them onto others and i don't care if you are talking about love of nation or your favourite tv show, fanaticism is a BAD BAD thing.

I agree that he should be swatted big time...unless someone was holding a gun to his head he made the choice to do what he did.

[m45]

Wow what a read that was you guys.

This is one that I think should be noted:Originally posted by jennaflower
I don't know about any of you, but I believe that this should be a wake up call for many in the U.S.

Yes a wake up call I think is much needed IN THIS COUNTRY...

And will this Originally posted by pantyfanaticbarbaric endeavor because of another barbarian

Really bring what they think?
I don't.

But this guy.... YA Hang'em

[seriousfun]

Jenna, I agree with you !

The military has done the just and right thing according to their own laws and rules: arrested him and taken him away from the field of battle (he's in Germany). He looks like a murderer to me.

Jenna, I must say with all affection, please please please look at a variety of news sources other than Fox. They have a clear self expressed agenda.

[jennaflower]

Seriousfun... I agree... Fox has an agenda... as do every other major news organization. I dont' only watch Fox... I also watch MSNBC, NBC, CNN (tho rarely) and I read alot as well (both on the net and in the old fashion press). :)

[LixyChick]

Originally posted by jennaflower
In my opinion, that is one of the problems in this world.. "mental illness' = ones inability to take the credit/blame for their actions.

Jenna.........I agree with ALMOST everything you have said here. I've read and reread this thread to make sure I understood all the comments, as this is such an emotional subject.

I took the above quote from your last statement and singled out this particular part because it strikes a chord in me that pisses me off to the point that no one could possibly understand! But I will make my point......and try and spare my reasoning, as it is such a long story and it doesn't apply here.

*Please understand.......I am not angry at you jenna! I am angry at the evolution of the interpretation of mental illness*

If a person becomes or is truly mentally ill (suddenly or for any length of time), then somewhere along his/her path in life, a close family member or friend or co-worker or clergy or even the supermarket checkout guy......or someone for christ's sake........would have picked up on this deviation from the norm that this person usually is!

Within the past 10-15 years it seems that whenever a person commits an abomination that is beyond the scope of normal, they are suddenly deemed mentally ill due to stress or harsh family upbringing or being "picked on" for a certain belief that isn't a popular belief amoungst their current peers. And everyone who is questioned about the person says, "Oh no, __________ was always so very stable. I can't imagine him/her doing this sort of thing!

Poppyfuckincock! At least one or all of the people in that unstable persons life had some inkling that he/she had gone off the deep end........or at the very least, they knew something was different and peculiar about him/her. And I am talking of the people that truly did lose their heads and go mental for a while or forever....whichever the case may be.

And the people that knew......and never said a thing......were covering their own asses in case they might be wrong about "a seemingly normal" person. Because if they say that they see the difference and no one else does......what a shithead they look to be. And if they say, after the fact (after something goes terribly wrong), that they knew something was wrong but were afraid to say so......what an even bigger shithead they look to be!

But my biggest problem with this particular case is the religious factor. According to his family and his clergy..........he was counseled as to the "what ifs and what shoulds" of when and if he is deployed to a country with muslim rule. All concerned, claim that this guy had it all together. He knew his destination and he knew the possible conflict of heart for his religion. His family said that he knew his objective was to protect his country and that his religion took a back seat to his purpose in this war!

I DO NOT BELIEVE that no one that he knew found a single difference in his attitude or demeanor just before he was sent into battle in a country where his particular religion is practiced.

My point? If this guy is found guilty of treason and murder......the people that knew that something was amiss with him and covered up for him in the media or even in their own home........are as guilty as he is from the get-go!

And the reason I pulled this particular quote to rant on? The mentally ill.......the truly mentally ill.........DO (in most instances) know if they do wrong. The difference between them and us? We would care and feel remorse........they don't! In their mind, anything they do for a cause is justfied....because they served the cause in the way that it was interpreted in their heads. Be it legal or not......good or bad.....it was a means to an end for the cause in their heads! Ergo.......mental illness!

[airhog]

You never know when some guy is going to snap. I think the religion and race card are being played heavily. Now him being a black muslim may have in fact hurt his chances for promotion. But I think there were other factors that played a much bigger role in his decision to kill his co's

[jennaflower]

Lixy... :) Thanks for posting about mental illness... I think that maybe my original statement wasn't clear or in deepth enough..

Yes.. there is indeed (sadly) true mental illness and many people suffer from it. However, it has become a label that is wrongly placed on tooooo many people as a poor self defense for their actions.

[Steph]

I didn't mean to upset people with my one sentence . . . I didn't want to flame the fires. It's a terrible crime but it also frightens me to hear people are out for blood. He should be punished but he deserves a trial like anyone else.

[Lilith]

Steph,
Unfortunately here in America, millitary personell do not have the same rights as the civillian population. Funny they lose their Constitutional rights to defend mine.

[skipthisone]

They get the Military Code of Justice which to me is more than fair when you should be held to a higher standard when you are serving. You make an oath and should be held to it.

[Steph]

Thanks, Lilith and skipthisone. I didn't know that.

I just read some letters from soldiers and , through my tears, realized the incredible stress they endure and I don't think the best shrink in the world could predict how someone can react to the strain.

Everything is going great'

Mary Vallis
National Post

SOLDIER'S LETTER ARRIVES HOME TO MOTHER ON THE DAY HE DIES: Gregory Sanders, a 19-year-old ammunition loader from Hobart, Ind., was shot dead on March 24 by an Iraqi sniper in fighting south of Baghdad.

Leslie Sanders received her last letter from her 19-year-old son, Corporal Gregory Sanders, on Monday, the same day she learned he had been killed by an Iraqi sniper in the desert south of Baghdad.

It is written on paper from a small office pad she had sent him in a care package. It is not dated, but was postmarked March 11. Cpl. Sanders, an ammunition loader, wrote the letter just before his regiment moved into Iraq from Kuwait. He was killed in action on March 24.

The letter home is one of several shared with the National Post by wives and mothers of soldiers from Fort Stewart in Georgia.

Most of the 13,300 members of the 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) from Fort Stewart have been deployed to the Gulf. Some have been away since last September.

Hi Mom,

Just got some free time so I'm writing to say hi. I'm sitting on my tank about 20 km from the border just doing some training. How's everybody doing at home? This is the weirdest country ever. There's no water but plants and grass still grow like there is. It's been raining a lot here, though. There is a really bad flying insect problem here also. Everything here is going great. Can't say if we're going to war or not, just watch the news and you'll know before I probably do. Each company here has their own media crew following them. Sorry about not writing earlier but I've been a little preoccupied getting ready to come out here. My lieutenant is talking about being home anytime from late May through August, but my crew's morale is unusually high. I guess we are just enjoying ourselves. Tell everyone I said hi and that we are doing well here in Camp Able (what we call it).

See you,
Greg

Letters

Staff Sergeant Rannulf "Randy" Pinkston and his wife, Heather, are high-school sweethearts who met in Denton, Tex. They have two children: Victoria, 8, and Julia, who just celebrated her first birthday. A tank commander, Staff Sgt. Pinkston, 27, left for Kuwait in September. Heather, who is also 27, received a one-page letter from him yesterday. It is dated March 14.

Heather,

Hey baby. I miss you like crazy. We have been out here for two weeks. Two weeks since we spoke last. I miss you so much. All I want to do is go back home and be with you to see our daughters.

I got to see the video of Julia's birthday. She sure did eat a lot of the cake. Our daughters are so beautiful. I love that she kisses my pictures. I'm so afraid that she'll cringe when I try to hold her. You looked damn fine in the video. Damn, baby! You really got it going on. You looked absolutely beautiful.

Still haven't got the shoes. I got the other boxes, thank you so much. That salsa was great. Please send more and Kool-Aid too. We are just sitting here waiting to go home, just don't know if I gotta go to Baghdad first. I know that if I go in, I've gotten over my fears. I'm not afraid to go to war to make the world a better place for you and our children.

The standards are pretty relaxed out here. We all have crew tents, one per tank, so there's four of us in each tent. It's really cramped. I just took pictures so you'll be able to see. We built a shower.

The water's ice cold but at least we get to have one. I sure could use some more CDs. Some other stuff, whatever you want to send is cool. Lots of junk food and pictures of you guys. I'm running out of books.

I'm so lucky to have you, baby. I miss you so bad. I'm so in love with you. I didn't think that two people could ever be this in love or as close as we are. I'm so lucky to have you in my life. You are what makes me happy.

You are what makes me complete. Tell Victoria she looks so pretty and real tall now. Kiss them both for me. Tell them how much I miss them and how much I love them and how sorry I am for being gone so long.

I love the watch. It's exactly what I would have picked. We are so meant for each other. Be strong and know that I love you more than anything in the world. I love you baby.

Love,

Randy

- - -

Jeni England, 23, had her last telephone conversation with her husband, 1st Lieutenant Jeremy England, on Feb. 16. The 24-year-old has been in the Gulf since September. He has deluged his wife with letters, and she says their tone has changed dramatically over time. She has received at least four this week. This letter, one of the most recent, was written just before he left Camp New York in Kuwait. Jeni believes he is now somewhere near Baghdad. The couple have two children, Troy, four, and Savannah, 14 months.

Hey baby, how are you?

...I still see no end in sight. I just don't know when we're coming home. I just know that I'm thinking of you every minute of every day. I love you more now than ever before. I'll be home one day. When that day comes, you'll never go another day without me showing you how much I love you.

I'll show you how much I love you in other ways. Every night, I dream I come home to you. It's so hard to have to face reality when I wake up.

I sure wish I could be there for Troy's first T-ball game. Hopefully I'll be there before his last one.

... Our children are such gifts. It took me a long time to realize that. You've helped me. All I need is to come home even for one day, one more day, that's all I need, one more day to show you all how much I miss you, how much I love you, but that's only going to make me wish for another day.

Your devoted husband,

Jeremy

© Copyright 2003 National Post

[Lilith]

I should clarify......I was referring to basic rights like freedom of expression and association.


I know too little about the millitary's way of dealing with criminal acts to comment. I just remember Mr. Lilith spending a couple of days guarding some guy who commited insurance fraud til the big dudes could come and get him. Our tiny base did not have a prison or cells so he just got guarded at base housing:p

[Scarecrow]

Here is the oath of office for the military


Sec. 502. - Enlistment oath: who may administer

Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath: ''I, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the
same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the
officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the

Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.'' This oath may be taken before any
commissioned officer of any armed force

[Nobody Special]

According to the US Constitution, Treason is punishable by Death by Firering Squad.... i say that he should be punished that way for his act of Treason.... and yes it was a choice that he made... and hey it is the Army.... they are all Meanies if they are Higher rank then you are.. so that is not an Excuse for the choice that this solder has made..

E

[jennaflower]

yes, the code of military conduct holds military personnel to a higher standard... that isn't going to chance... nor should it. A new recruit is educated quickly as to exactly what the code is and are made aware quickly what is expected of them. The military has FREE medical care (including mental and emotional) and there is absolutely no where in this equation that the military failed this murderer. I do hope that he is executed, as the code of military conduct outlines as a punishment for treason against our country.

I don't care what his reasons are.... I have been there (serving in the military that is) and I know the ways in which someone struggling mentally can get help.