Feelings!

[Irish]

I'm not going to discuss wether or not it is right to invade!I was in
the military,between the ages of 17-21.I graduated at 17&
enlisted.I know,from experience here, that the members care
about the feelings of others.I got very hardened emotionally,
seeing the atrocities,done to people, in Veit Nam.The people in
battle are just doing as they are told.Otherwise, it's military jail!
Wether(sp?)you believe in what the soldiers are doing or not,
please support them when they are done.If they have shot
anyone,it was probably,just because they were scared shitless,
and afraid the other would harm them.Machoness kept me from
saying this when I was young&macho myself.When you have just been following orders&you come home,proud of yourself,for serving your country,right or wrong,it doesn't make you feel to
good to be called a"Baby Killer"&spit on.When you're that young,
you believe what your Govt. tells you&don't realise the lies that
are told you! Irish
P.S.That's 1961-1965,in case anyones wondering.

[Staar]

Irish - well put!!! I never served my country, though my father served in the Korean conflict .... I deeply appreciate the service given in my behalf by those who are in the armed services, especially now at this time of upheaval .... I happen to have 2 family members serving currently - 1 stationed in the middle east now. In America we are fortunate enough to not have had to deal with "war" inside our boundaries and so I think sometimes it is easy to forget that war really is hell - and when you are in hell, it is not always possible to make the choices you would most like to make! Thanks for taking the time to express and for opening the forum for others like me. :)

[gekkogecko]

Whoo, boy, what an emotionally charged subject.

On the one hand, there is the 'war atrocity' argument: that the excuse of 'just following orders' was what was used by the Nazi underlings responsible for the mass murders and genocide druing the Second World War. Therefore, it is no excuse at all.

I must point out to those who would make this argument, however, the the US Military has an explicitly worded legal document to deal with this. Members of the US military, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, are required to follow all *lawful* orders of their superior officer. If a person in the field can show justification that the order issued is not lawful, then there is procedure outlined, which must be followed in order to avoid carrying out that order. In this particular case, the burder of proof is on the complaintaint to show the order was not lawful.

It is very difficult to do so. The US military can, does and has prosecuted members both for carrying out unlawful orders, and (more frequently) for failing to carry out lawful ones.

Even if you feel that the prosecution of the impending war against Iraq is wrong, please therefore, carefully direct your complaints, and possible anger where it belongs: at the current US administration, not at the soldier, sailor, or airmen in the field.

[Irish]

gekkogecko---When you're 17/18,you know nothing of a
"Uniform Code of Military Justice".You are a kid and just do
what your elders tell you.If you go to your superiors,superior,
you are asked why you didn't use the"Chain of Command"and
probably got busted in rank.Don't forget the times!(1961-1965)
I had a Tech Sargeants skill level,(5 stripes)when I was still a private(one
stripe)It also happened to two of my buddies.We were told by
our shop chief,not to hang around together,or we wouldn't
make rank.We each told him that as long as we didn't get any
"bad"time,he didn't pick our off duty friends.Every time that we
were awarded a promotion,he would"Red Line"our orders.
Would I do it again?Yes.A friend is a friend!We didn't even
have a"G.I. Bill! Irish
P.S.Most people don't believe the GI Bill statement.Check it out!

[Aqua]

Well said Irish. And very well made points from you and Gecko. I appreciate those that serve our country, having had two brothers and several friends that served. I believe there are some soldiers that would be all to eager to gun down the enemy, but the majority (I hope) would only shoot so as to avoid being shot themselves. When this is over, you can be sure Irish, that any soldier I meet will have my support and respect. (That is of course provisional to the behaviour they display in my presence... if he's jumping around a bar being an ass... he might not have much of my respect... unless I decided to join him in jumping around! :p )

[Scarecrow]

Well said Irish, Please support are men & women in the service.

[celticangel]

just hope that for once common sense and a love of humanity prevails!---------not that I can see that happening---------God bless them all!

[Vintage Vixen]

Irish ..my dad was in the navy from 58-60 i believe.He was stationed in maine........YIKES!!! My dad just turned 60 ...i was born with rh negative blood and needed transfusions,guess who came to my rescue??? THE NAVY :) And when i at 2 months old in an accident whith my dad and one of his drinkin buddys...i needed another transfusion..they almost lost me.But his navy buddys came through again and ..here i am lol:):)

[kleclere]

Irish I also served in the military. It was for 7yrs, altho I never was in during a conflict missed Desert Storm by 2 days. I can say I still am proud to have served and applaud all who have served before me. Knowing that it is kill or be killed is a scary situation no matter how old you are.

[dzbuster]

i got respect for soldiers. when i was younger i went to join the marines and was told they wanted a few good men and i didn't qualify.

[Vintage Vixen]

Originally posted by dzbuster
i got respect for soldiers. when i was younger i went to join the marines and was told they wanted a few good men and i didn't qualify.

Hey i got my one good man:)

[incitatus]

when you are in hell, it is not always possible to make the choices you would most like to make

Knowing that it is kill or be killed is a scary situation no matter how old you are.

...both excellent quotes...

I was in the Army, and like Irish said, when you're 17, just out of school and away from home you do whatever the hell your superiors tell you.

In case anyone's interested, I think we need to stay out of Iraq militarily. Although I voted for "dubya", I think he's showing signs of war-mongering...

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong"

[PantyFanatic]

Pausing for a moment, I have to think of how wonderful Pixies has been to enjoy every fantasy and freedom at. How nice it’s been to meet REAL people that you truly get to know and like. I guess it become very REAL for me. And the hook is that the REAL world is just outside our gate and where we ALL come from and ALL go to. SO!……….

I have to work my way to the front and while passing LixyChick, whisper in her ear, “Have a seat. I’ll take CHATTY duty today.”

I step over to the OldFart-Irish soapbox, but only to have a seat myself. This is nothing worth standing for.

I think only Love has had more words written it in an attempt to verbalize the incomprehensible.

Like you Irish, we came from a very different time, a very different culture, with very different beliefs and understandings. I think it was more like the one my father and 3 uncles were from when they served during WWII, and the one my grandfather and two great-uncles knew in WWI.

The people who are going, have no concept about where they’re going. Either do the people that are sending them, or the people that can only stand by and watch. And it’s a place that the solider can NOT conceive that he’s really been to. And when WAR happens, ATROCITIES happen. War IS an atrocity! And no other specie can do it like mankind. (mankind,… is that an oxymoron?) Probably the best words to describe what a solider will have is “Eternal periods of intense boredom, separated by moments of stark fucking terror.”

NO! I do not confuse the war with the solider. I don’t have to support a war to support the solider. He will have enough thrown at him.

And Aqu, you’re right.
(That is of course provisional to the behaviour they display in my presence... if he's jumping around a bar being an ass...
You treat an asshole like an asshole. And that has nothing to do with where he’s been. Hell, he doesn’t even know where he’s been. Trust me on this one!

[PantyFanatic]

The defense at Nuremberg was totally unacceptable for atrocities performed in a prison. A guard and a solider are NOT the same thing.

And it is a fact that we have these provisions in UCMJ. This VERY slippery slope that becomes overloaded with politics, as noted by Irish, and the contradicting necessity of having a ready protective and defending force to move decisively without question, is there. It also is EVALUATED in a quiet room, before a court-martial board in dress uniforms.

Unfortunately, the ACTIVATION of this provision sometimes happens where the air is alive with the smell gun powder and blood. Yes, blood has a very definite SMELL. It’s suppose to be made by a 20 year old kid that doesn’t even know he peed his pants a ½ hour ago, and doesn’t know the strange feeling surrounding his entire body isn’t because God is coming for him. It’s just every hair standing straight up. It does do that. It’s a physiological thing. It is suppose to be done by somebody who’s only contact with bamboo, until now, was a fishing pole with a pieces of string and a bobber at the end.
Wouldn’t it be nice if everything went as laid out in the book.:(

[quisath]

GO NAVY

71-75 2nd Fleet Uss Forrestal

ASM 2 Flight Deck T/S "Proud to Have Served"

[Irish]

Pantyfanatic---Your statement of"Treat an asshole,like an asshole"reminds me of something that my father told me once.
When I was a young kid,my father was a Conn. State Cop.He quit
when I was a baby,so you can figure the years.I'm 58 now!At the
time,Conn.,had cardboard,tri-fold,operators licenses.If you had,
motor vehicle,violations,the court would enter them on the back.
These were not the days of the frivilous lawsuit,so Cops had more
leeway.If my father stopped a motorist,who was speeding,and didn't have multiple violations,and was polite,he let him go.No
written warning,or anything.If he stopped a person doing 37 in a
35 zone,and he gave him a bunch of crap,he had a ticket.My father said"If he wants to act like an asshole,he gets treated like
one!"He always told me,to be polite to cops,judges,etc.He said,
that even if they were wrong,a little respect goes a long way.
Irish

[LixyChick]

*Saunters up to pantyfanatic.......leans and whispers in his ear, If you are just gonna sit on that soap box.......may I direct you to that lounge chair (points to the Lane lounge).....I think I have something to say today babycakes! "Steps up onto the box.*

A gasp comes from the crowd!* LMAO!

I love the "blind faith" that takes our "boys" to a country and culture they've never known, to fight for the freedom we have all come to know and love and to keep us safe from "insane" leaders of other countries! I worry for their safety and I cry when I see a news report of a body being brought home. I fly my flag(s) proudly because I know I live in one of the greatest nations on the planet! I get goose bumps whenever I hear our national anthem. I support our troops in anyway I can. I would NEVER boo, hiss, or spit on a soldier who has come home from a war. I would be much more likely to hug him and tell him thank you for serving our nation in such a brave and heroic way!

On the other hand............I ABHOR WAR! I will never.....if I live to be 1000 yrs. old......understand the concept!

I am NOT saying any of this to piss anyone off.......I am just stating my opinion. However, my opinion may just piss some off. Please read this a couple of times before you comment.....and try and see it from my point of view before you get your panties (scuse me PF) inna bunch!

(I) think war has more to do with testosterone and greed than anything else. I totally understand that we (as a free nation full of diplomats and diplomacy) want to spread our "cheer and bliss". But in all honesty.......when was the last time you (personally) have ever taken a strong stand against somethng someone else has said or believes.....and actually argued and made them see your point and come around to your beliefs? It rarely happens........fewer times than not......if ever.....in your own personal lifetime! Mostly we just agree to disagree and then think to ourselves.......I am right......they are wrong! They'll see someday! And they'll remember me because they saw!

Why, oh why, do we expect an entire country who truly believes we are wrong and misguided and evil in our beliefs......to suddenly........because we killed (X) amount of their soldiers and civilians............come around to think, "Ya know....they (Americans and our allies) really have a great point here! We should listen to their wisdom and do what they want us to do and we can be wonderful too!"

I know, I know..........WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! That just leads me back to my original thought.......testosterone and greed! If men.....(and I say men because, until fairly recently, this has been solely a patriarch decision to fight a war).....hadn't NEEDED to have more land to call their own and NEEDED more followers to agree with their "self proclaimed" wisdom of wrong and right...(and I am not talking just the recent wars......but throughout the ages of man from the time of cavemen)...then the word WAR may have never been needed to be added to our vocabulary.

"Ugh! Me need that land Yug has......I throw rock and hurt him bad.....he leave....I get his land!"...~OR~..."Ugh! Gorp no like how I carve dinosaur and I do it the right way......I throw rock and hurt him bad......then he knows I am right!" TADA! WAR...in it's earliest stages.

I am not so naive to think that (in this day and age) things can ever be redirected to another formula. We've known war far too long to change our stratedgy now. I'm also not saying.....that in some instances.......brute strength and sever punishment are totally wrong. I know there are leaders who have "flown the cuckoo's nest"! I know that supervision and restraint have to be enforced in order for us not to repeat the atrocities of the past. I actually DON'T know a better recourse than to go to war to stop a nut case from using his weapons of mass destruction.............because it had been set in motion far before our time! It is "the way".......and I don't have to like it.......and I will never understand it............but I know it has to happen because we know no other way!

So, there......I said it! Agree or disagree, I don't mind! But don't throw stones......it's just a thought I had to get off my chest!

I'll stand behind any decision that our President makes in sending our "boys" to war. But I would love to know............why doesn't he pick up a gun? George Washington did! And he was the biggest "daddy" we ever had!

*steps off the box and carries it to pantyfanatic's seat......picks up his feet and places them on it.....(since he couldn't figure out how to make the chair recline!) LMAO!*

[PantyFanatic]

(mankind,… is that an oxymoron?) :confused:

[Scarecrow]

Those who go to war and do the fighting are the first ones who want to see it end. As I and a few others here can attest too.

[PantyFanatic]

.

[incitatus]

Lixy,
I understand what you're saying -and I agree...
but,
a lot of what you're saying has to do with survival instincts (Survival of the Fittest, and all that rot). -and greed.

Man will get greedy in his quest for power and influence, if allowed to.

[LixyChick]

Whew! I was scared to come back here and read the responses. And maybe I still should be........it is rather early yet! Yikes!

*dashes out the door again!*

[Irish]

LixyChick---There is nothing to fear except fear itself!Everyone
is entitled to their own opinion.Many WARS have been fought
and people have died or been maimed,to give you that right!
That's one thing that you can thank MEN for.By the way,there
are now males&females in the military!I know that has nothing to
do with war,but strictly for information purposes.My feelings are
that everyone should do some military duty.If nothing else,it makes you grow up!You learn to take care of yourself & stop
relying on"daddy" to take care of things. Irish
P.S.Just my $.02

[LixyChick]

Originally posted by LixyChick
*.....(and I say men because, until fairly recently, this has been solely a patriarch decision to fight a war).....

Irish.......I know, I know! That's why I said what I said up there ^. I didn't mean to make it seem as if I were "male bashing". I was stating a fact........That until fairly recently......and from the beginning of mankind (humankind)....the decision to fight (in lieu of finding another way of solving the problem at hand)....was a male decision. Estrogen never had a vote.

TY hun! For understanding that I do realize MY freedom IS my freedom BECAUSE of the men and women who bravely fight for it!
*hugs*

[Irish]

LixyChick---Sorry,I'm a little touchy(both ways)about the gender
thing.We have two daughters.In school,one was a mediocre
basketball player.One was an excellant softball pitcher!I'm not
saying this because she's my daughter.I was a pitcher and I
think that I know enough about it,to recognise talent.I used to
get pissed off,when they would put in someone,who couldn't
pitch,worth a shit,because she was a girl&he was a boy!I had
the same type of thing as a foreman.I had one woman on my
crew and management wanted me to show favoritism.I wouldn't
do it.I always believed in"Equal pay for an equal job."If you do what is assigned to you,you get promoted.If you don't"Good Bye"
The work is a reflection on me!I also wouldn't ask anyone to do
anything,that I wouldn't do myself.I was also,the head mechanic,
so I worked with my crew. Irish

[LixyChick]

Irish! I know about being "touchy"! My dad (gawd I miss him) served in two wars! WWII and the Korean conflict! He had medals out the wazzoo (of which I am still trying.....to no avail.....to get duplicates from the Veterans Administration as they were stolen from his apartment just a few hours after he died........he lived in a bad part of Camden, N.J. and when the neighbors heard of his death....they ransacked his apartment. Long story there...I won't bore you)

Anyway.........I am not without the sense and feeling of knowing which side my bread is buttered on! As far as equality.......we have a long way to go......but we (women) have come a long way as well and I am proud of that!

As far as war...........well.......as I said from the beginning, I state what I think......(as MY opinion only).........because I never back down when I have something to say! And you must know by now......LOL!.......I ALWAYS have SOMETHING to say!

*hugs again*

[gekkogecko]

Couple of things to follow up on:

Irish: not sure what your point is about a 18 or 19 year old not knowing the UCMJ...Personally, I did when I was 18. Then again, I was training to be an ossifer, and well, I am the exception in that I was hyper-aware of issues within the military. For the average 18 y/o enlisted grunt, your statement is certainly true. My original point in bringing up the UCMJ was that, even with it's existence, it's very difficult, almost to the point of impossiblity, for a field grunt to use it to refuse an unlawful order. You seemed to be in agreement. This is why I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Originally posted by LixyChick

^. I didn't mean to make it seem as if I were "male bashing". I was stating a fact........That until fairly recently......and from the beginning of mankind (humankind)....the decision to fight (in lieu of finding another way of solving the problem at hand)....was a male decision. Estrogen never had a vote.


Never felt it was, (male-bashing) LC, since what you said is generally true...but the case is not as abosolute as you make it out to be. To whit (and, wow, did I ever have a hard time checking out my facts here, to be sure I got them right).

Among the Seneca peoples, it was exclusively the role and power of the Women's councils to appoint war chiefs, to decide how and when war parties would be formed, how much and when to supply the war parties, etc etc. There is therefore, at least one example of a decision to go to war being in the hands of women. And, yes, the Senecas fought numerous wars before the advent of Euorpeans on the North American Continent. My only point here is really to say that once again, the problem is with the makers of policy, whether they are male or female.

[PantyFanatic]

My only point here is really to say that once again, the problem is with the makers of policy, whether they are male or female.
...here is really to say that once again, the problem is with ... HUMANS. Self-destructive and too damn many of them!